Thanks so much for being here and for sharing, Reb. I love that the lexicon is changing - and that it’s expanded beyond the "identified-patient" models.
Though I’m all for diversity and recognize that there are many different experiences of addiction and recovery, I do take issue with folks who identify as "sober" (especially online, as part of their work and "brand") yet choose to drink on occasion - and I’ve noticed several instances of this on Substack recently. Folks who choose to call themselves "sober" but who are not sober are attracting sober readers who don’t realize that the person still drinks. This not only feels disingenuous to me, but also disrespectful and potentially harmful.
Yes - I agree, Adam. I think the more someone can be clear on who they are and what they’re offering or representing, the better.
Not saying we have to have ourselves all figured out! But I suspect that, sometimes, the lack of transparency online is intentional for the purpose of growing an audience. (Not saying this was the case with the original "sort-of-sober" person who inspired this essay, but it may be the case with some other publications I’m seeing lately.)
So they are just bros or the equivalent jumping on a bandwagon?
To me that’s fine. They’ll never understand. They don’t know the process of clawing up from rock bottom. They’ll jump onto the next big thing. And who knows, it might be a blessing when their clientele jump ship to true sober brands like us. They’ll have done the marketing for us.
Thanks so much for being here and for your kind words, Susan. So true - I think pretty much all humans can fall into unhelpful patterns, and I think of sobriety in an expansive sense that goes way beyond alcohol.
If you search Naltrexone and alcohol use disorder, a bunch of things will come up. I’m certainly no expert on that usage, but have spoken to folks who take it to support them in drinking less. Personally, I prefer to not use pharmaceuticals unless absolutely necessary. But also, I wanted a clean break from alcohol - and did NOT want to continue "managing" and "negotiating" it. For me, there’s tremendous relief in letting all that go.
it’s wonderful you published this, even though you could feel the parts telling you not to. I was watching myself as I read this, kind of noticing my different feelings (or I’d call them “parts”) come up. You are so right about how some level of exclusivity (with reason and meaning) lends itself to even a deeper senes of belonging. It’s like you said, of course we want everyone to find spaces where they feel belonging, but can that really be felt if there is no container, no edges? I flirted with all the sober curious options, including mindful drinking before finding myself at sober-sober and that is just worked for me. I too deeply value harm reduction and don’t need everyone to do it like me. I just need myself to do it like me. Which is another thing that I think you know, but want to name is that I really felt you described what you need. What works for you. Not what other people should do.
And your question about exclusivity brought to mind the strangest memory (I’m not editing here, just remembering) of a Gold’s Gym I worked at (ah!) in college where there was a part that was just for women. It was amazing at the time for me. I could exercise in peace. This was a long time ago and I hope they would frame it differently now in terms of the gender, but it’s a Gold’s Gym so that it probably deranged of me, but a girl can dream.
Thank you so much for sharing that, Kaitlyn. Huge recognition for finding what works best for you, having the openness and courage to explore different paths, and being able to hold space for other folks whose paths differ. I’m a strong believer that more than one thing can be true, and I feel there’s room for nuance and complexity in these conversations (as you seem to suggest as well).
That makes complete sense to me about Gold’s. I likely would’ve preferred working out in that section too!
"The mindful drinking movement does not support my sobriety.
In my personal recovery, discussion about sober-ish life and mindful drinking are not supportive. In fact, the most supportive thing for my recovery is to distance myself from those conversations."
There's a parallel here with my recent thoughts on how to approach what I believe to be a serious junk food addiction in myself, and "intuitive eating" as it applies to binge eating.
At first glance, intuitive eating makes sense to me. I should be able to eat one cookie, enjoy it, and continue my day. The problem is that my body doesn't know what's healthy, and I get hijacked by uncontrollable urges. My intuition about certain foods is busted.
Of course, I don't know what alcohol addiction is like, and I imagine it as being so much worse than my problem. But one cookie seems a little similar in some ways to "just having one shot."
I can't eat one cookie without thinking for hours or days about all the other crap I could eat. I'll get that terrible feeling in the pit of my stomach as I deliberate for hours over whether or not to stop at each and every gas station, Mcdonalds or supermarket I pass until eventually, I buckle, just to get rid of that feeling.
The safest course isn't intuitive eating, but intentional eating. Avoidance is the best solution.
Thank you so much for sharing that parallel, Tim. It feels very resonant with my own relationship to food and also aligns with my work with clients, many of whom struggle with eating addictions and have found intuitive eating approaches unhelpful for them personally - even though such approaches may be the exact thing that helps others. Huge recognition for your self-awareness around what YOU need to stay the course with your choices and feel your best.
Thank you for this. I have moved another small increment closer to clarity in my thinking on this. The tiny amount I drink now was unimaginable when I was leaning heavily on alcohol as a coping mechanism and that brings me confidence for what’s possible in the future. Every time I read something you have written on sobriety, I am more sure that this is right for me and that I will get there. currently on the rare occasion I do drink, I can notice what is going on and what I am needing without judging. I remain curious when I repeatedly find that my most common reason for drinking is still peer pressure or maybe that is just an excuse for self abandoning. I know I am making progress and it’s reassuring to see so many others on this path, all finding the best way for themselves. It’s my pleasure to be walking together with you and this community ❤️
Beautiful comment, Cindy. Thank you. And Dana, I’m just finding your substack and subscribed *because* of this particular essay. Very clear! Much appreciated. Looking forward to exploring more. Xx
Way to go Dana!! This needed to be dissected and discussed. I’ll share my experience as an AA attendee as well as someone who helps new people in recovery; the ‘I’m sober-ish’ attitude won’t cut it with people who stand in the TSA line with a bottle of Aquifina refilled with vodka and waiting until the officer says “drink it or dump it out!!” to ‘load up’ so they can then make it until drinks are served on their flight!! These same newbies still “aren’t sure” they are alcoholic. Right???!!!! So, you have these types (which in AA are the majority) and then you have the -ish people that feel the need to talk for 10 minutes about how great their lives are now that they are hanging out with people in recovery but they still ‘slip’ once in awhile. The TSA Aquifina vodka drinker is like “see, I can still drink a little…”. I’m like “noooo…their different.” Anyway, I’m just showing the dilema with integrating all levels of addiction. It’s tricky!! Thanks for opening this up Dana!!! 🙏
Thank you so much for sharing that perspective, Christopher. And it really is true: when I show up to a sober meeting (in AA or elsewhere), I assume that at least some folks there are new, struggling, and/or on the precipice of a potentially life-altering (maybe life-endangering) choice. Consideration for others in the room feels like an essential part of belonging in community. Thank you for being here!
“consideration of others…..” Yes!!! That’s the key…and yet, so hard to practice at times. My damn ego is always there trying to make every situation about me.
As you probably figured out; the TSA line Aquafina vodka situation was me…for over 10 years. I have my criticisms of AA and rehab centers. In fact, I am outspoken about them at times. But I am also a testiment to their efficacy. As I sit here typing this, I have zero compulsion or even the slightest desire to drink. What’s that!!!??? A miracle really!! I’ve spent the last 3 years drilling into that miracle trying to understand the mechanics of it. And, to some degree, I have….but the rabbit hole runs deep.
I didn’t mean to drag this on but your post really hit (in a good way) with me. Thank you!!
As someone who doesn't have alcohol addiction issues, I found this essay a great discussion about personal boundaries.
I'll keep the points you made in mind as I write my article about being a working class person in a very middle class environmental movement, and some of those challenges.
It'll be the first I use a paywall for, for privacy reasons.
Thank you for bringing in that aspect, Diana. And so true: I think this area of exploration and conversation extends far beyond the addiction and sobriety space. Best wishes with your article!
Thank you for writing and sharing this. For me, there can be no data points, no slips; no “ish.” And if there were, I wouldn’t be counting my sobriety as “continuous” as I’ve heard people do in meetings. It’s frustrating. It feels as though it lessens my sobriety. Is that immature? Jealousy? I don’t think so. For over 4 years, I have worked damn hard to stay completely alcohol free. I don’t soften my hard moments with a glass of wine or a shot of vodka. And when I’ve had that urge, I’ve used all my tools to not do so.
I, like you, am grateful for the trend toward sobriety and 100% support harm reduction. I just don’t want my hard won sobriety lumped in with someone’s sober-ish moderation or alcohol reduction. Which isn’t to say that some folks who aim for full sobriety sometimes slip. That’s different and I think we all know that.
I also believe (hope?) we will see a shift in the alcohol consumption culture, much like we saw in the tobacco smoking culture. It wasn’t that long ago where to be a non-smoker was to be the oddity; the weirdo, the annoying one asking to sit in the nonsmoking section (remember those?). I hope, that in my lifetime, I see us sober folks becoming the normies, with the drinkers outside on the back stoop, chugging their highly taxed socially unacceptable hard cider.
Thank you for being here and for sharing that, Rosemary. Your experience is very resonant with my own. And yes! Maybe in five years, folks won’t need to explain why they’re choosing to not drink.
Fantastic post. Thank you for sharing. I agree. In terms of other exclusive space debates, nationally we're discussing this on college campuses as DEI work is being politicized. Having a safe supportive space for Black students, for example, is now being seen as too exclusionary. But living at a PWI is exclusionary by nature and those affinity groups and spaces are created for Black students to find safety and a sense of belonging. Same for GSA/pride groups on campus. Both of these examples always welcome allies who might be outside of those identities but it's not a place for an ally to go to raise their voice and concerns. It wasn't created for the allies. It's necessary and helpful to create spaces and groups for individuals who are marginalized in our society. I see this as similar in some ways.
Dana, all your points were made very eloquently and clearly. I have a feeling that what people are missing is a sense of community and everyone will find that in their own way. I don't see how AA is gatekeeping and it's just an example of a how some terms are misused nowadays. For the people in AA, the program and its restrictions are lifesaving and necessary to survive (often it is about life and death) like you stated. I am not in AA but I am in Al-anon, so I understand a little about the other programs. Take care <3
Thank you for sharing and for your kind words, Helen. And I agree - so many folks (self included) seem to be searching for connection and community these days. Hearts to you!
My reaction was that I think this conversation stems from a debate between valuing a group versus the individual.
Those who value the individual may see a responsibility to guide the sober curious person into full sobriety, while those who value the group may see the devastation that a non-sober person could bring to that community.
Neither is right nor wrong, it's just an age-old nuance about how people view the world.
I personally value the group over the individual and would tell the person that it's ok to keep looking and not force a square peg into the round hole.
Others would call that opinion harsh, which I'm aware of.
Thanks for sharing that angle, Kevin. I find it interesting to consider how much of our tendencies in this regard are cultural, and how they differ from culture to culture, era to era, and community to community. My dharma teacher speaks about this as relates to the pull towards individualism among many North Americans, for example; the situation was quite different when he was training in a Zen monastery in Japan.
Thanks so much for being here and for sharing, Reb. I love that the lexicon is changing - and that it’s expanded beyond the "identified-patient" models.
Though I’m all for diversity and recognize that there are many different experiences of addiction and recovery, I do take issue with folks who identify as "sober" (especially online, as part of their work and "brand") yet choose to drink on occasion - and I’ve noticed several instances of this on Substack recently. Folks who choose to call themselves "sober" but who are not sober are attracting sober readers who don’t realize that the person still drinks. This not only feels disingenuous to me, but also disrespectful and potentially harmful.
My first layer of confusion is this: Why would someone write about something they’re not?
Like, I wouldn’t write about my journey into selling real estate in America and gives tips and perspectives on that.
Are they more of a health brand that helps regular folk cut down their alcohol use?
Yes - I agree, Adam. I think the more someone can be clear on who they are and what they’re offering or representing, the better.
Not saying we have to have ourselves all figured out! But I suspect that, sometimes, the lack of transparency online is intentional for the purpose of growing an audience. (Not saying this was the case with the original "sort-of-sober" person who inspired this essay, but it may be the case with some other publications I’m seeing lately.)
So they are just bros or the equivalent jumping on a bandwagon?
To me that’s fine. They’ll never understand. They don’t know the process of clawing up from rock bottom. They’ll jump onto the next big thing. And who knows, it might be a blessing when their clientele jump ship to true sober brands like us. They’ll have done the marketing for us.
Could be! I appreciate considering the supportive ways it could play out for folks!
Thanks so much for being here and for your kind words, Susan. So true - I think pretty much all humans can fall into unhelpful patterns, and I think of sobriety in an expansive sense that goes way beyond alcohol.
If you search Naltrexone and alcohol use disorder, a bunch of things will come up. I’m certainly no expert on that usage, but have spoken to folks who take it to support them in drinking less. Personally, I prefer to not use pharmaceuticals unless absolutely necessary. But also, I wanted a clean break from alcohol - and did NOT want to continue "managing" and "negotiating" it. For me, there’s tremendous relief in letting all that go.
it’s wonderful you published this, even though you could feel the parts telling you not to. I was watching myself as I read this, kind of noticing my different feelings (or I’d call them “parts”) come up. You are so right about how some level of exclusivity (with reason and meaning) lends itself to even a deeper senes of belonging. It’s like you said, of course we want everyone to find spaces where they feel belonging, but can that really be felt if there is no container, no edges? I flirted with all the sober curious options, including mindful drinking before finding myself at sober-sober and that is just worked for me. I too deeply value harm reduction and don’t need everyone to do it like me. I just need myself to do it like me. Which is another thing that I think you know, but want to name is that I really felt you described what you need. What works for you. Not what other people should do.
And your question about exclusivity brought to mind the strangest memory (I’m not editing here, just remembering) of a Gold’s Gym I worked at (ah!) in college where there was a part that was just for women. It was amazing at the time for me. I could exercise in peace. This was a long time ago and I hope they would frame it differently now in terms of the gender, but it’s a Gold’s Gym so that it probably deranged of me, but a girl can dream.
Thank you so much for sharing that, Kaitlyn. Huge recognition for finding what works best for you, having the openness and courage to explore different paths, and being able to hold space for other folks whose paths differ. I’m a strong believer that more than one thing can be true, and I feel there’s room for nuance and complexity in these conversations (as you seem to suggest as well).
That makes complete sense to me about Gold’s. I likely would’ve preferred working out in that section too!
Very well articulated. I agree on all fronts.
Thank you, Laura. And thanks again for your comment on the other essay - you really helped me clarify why I was feeling so reactive.
Beautiful and honest, which is the best we can offer ❤️
Thank you, Caroline. Hearts to you ❤️
"The mindful drinking movement does not support my sobriety.
In my personal recovery, discussion about sober-ish life and mindful drinking are not supportive. In fact, the most supportive thing for my recovery is to distance myself from those conversations."
There's a parallel here with my recent thoughts on how to approach what I believe to be a serious junk food addiction in myself, and "intuitive eating" as it applies to binge eating.
At first glance, intuitive eating makes sense to me. I should be able to eat one cookie, enjoy it, and continue my day. The problem is that my body doesn't know what's healthy, and I get hijacked by uncontrollable urges. My intuition about certain foods is busted.
Of course, I don't know what alcohol addiction is like, and I imagine it as being so much worse than my problem. But one cookie seems a little similar in some ways to "just having one shot."
I can't eat one cookie without thinking for hours or days about all the other crap I could eat. I'll get that terrible feeling in the pit of my stomach as I deliberate for hours over whether or not to stop at each and every gas station, Mcdonalds or supermarket I pass until eventually, I buckle, just to get rid of that feeling.
The safest course isn't intuitive eating, but intentional eating. Avoidance is the best solution.
Thank you so much for sharing that parallel, Tim. It feels very resonant with my own relationship to food and also aligns with my work with clients, many of whom struggle with eating addictions and have found intuitive eating approaches unhelpful for them personally - even though such approaches may be the exact thing that helps others. Huge recognition for your self-awareness around what YOU need to stay the course with your choices and feel your best.
Thank you for this. I have moved another small increment closer to clarity in my thinking on this. The tiny amount I drink now was unimaginable when I was leaning heavily on alcohol as a coping mechanism and that brings me confidence for what’s possible in the future. Every time I read something you have written on sobriety, I am more sure that this is right for me and that I will get there. currently on the rare occasion I do drink, I can notice what is going on and what I am needing without judging. I remain curious when I repeatedly find that my most common reason for drinking is still peer pressure or maybe that is just an excuse for self abandoning. I know I am making progress and it’s reassuring to see so many others on this path, all finding the best way for themselves. It’s my pleasure to be walking together with you and this community ❤️
Such a beautiful share, Cindy. Thank you - I’m grateful you’re here. ❤️
I can relate so much Cindy. Thanks for sharing.
Beautiful comment, Cindy. Thank you. And Dana, I’m just finding your substack and subscribed *because* of this particular essay. Very clear! Much appreciated. Looking forward to exploring more. Xx
Thank you for being here and for subscribing, Cleo. Hearts to you!
This is a whole layer and nuanced conversation I wasn't aware was happening. Thanks for sorting through it, Dana. I agree with you!
Thank you for all that you do in sober spaces, Jolene!
Way to go Dana!! This needed to be dissected and discussed. I’ll share my experience as an AA attendee as well as someone who helps new people in recovery; the ‘I’m sober-ish’ attitude won’t cut it with people who stand in the TSA line with a bottle of Aquifina refilled with vodka and waiting until the officer says “drink it or dump it out!!” to ‘load up’ so they can then make it until drinks are served on their flight!! These same newbies still “aren’t sure” they are alcoholic. Right???!!!! So, you have these types (which in AA are the majority) and then you have the -ish people that feel the need to talk for 10 minutes about how great their lives are now that they are hanging out with people in recovery but they still ‘slip’ once in awhile. The TSA Aquifina vodka drinker is like “see, I can still drink a little…”. I’m like “noooo…their different.” Anyway, I’m just showing the dilema with integrating all levels of addiction. It’s tricky!! Thanks for opening this up Dana!!! 🙏
Thank you so much for sharing that perspective, Christopher. And it really is true: when I show up to a sober meeting (in AA or elsewhere), I assume that at least some folks there are new, struggling, and/or on the precipice of a potentially life-altering (maybe life-endangering) choice. Consideration for others in the room feels like an essential part of belonging in community. Thank you for being here!
“consideration of others…..” Yes!!! That’s the key…and yet, so hard to practice at times. My damn ego is always there trying to make every situation about me.
As you probably figured out; the TSA line Aquafina vodka situation was me…for over 10 years. I have my criticisms of AA and rehab centers. In fact, I am outspoken about them at times. But I am also a testiment to their efficacy. As I sit here typing this, I have zero compulsion or even the slightest desire to drink. What’s that!!!??? A miracle really!! I’ve spent the last 3 years drilling into that miracle trying to understand the mechanics of it. And, to some degree, I have….but the rabbit hole runs deep.
I didn’t mean to drag this on but your post really hit (in a good way) with me. Thank you!!
Hurray for miracles, Chris! And for all that you’ve done to arrive where you are today!
Hi Dana. I hope you're well.
As someone who doesn't have alcohol addiction issues, I found this essay a great discussion about personal boundaries.
I'll keep the points you made in mind as I write my article about being a working class person in a very middle class environmental movement, and some of those challenges.
It'll be the first I use a paywall for, for privacy reasons.
Thank you for bringing in that aspect, Diana. And so true: I think this area of exploration and conversation extends far beyond the addiction and sobriety space. Best wishes with your article!
Thank you for writing and sharing this. For me, there can be no data points, no slips; no “ish.” And if there were, I wouldn’t be counting my sobriety as “continuous” as I’ve heard people do in meetings. It’s frustrating. It feels as though it lessens my sobriety. Is that immature? Jealousy? I don’t think so. For over 4 years, I have worked damn hard to stay completely alcohol free. I don’t soften my hard moments with a glass of wine or a shot of vodka. And when I’ve had that urge, I’ve used all my tools to not do so.
I, like you, am grateful for the trend toward sobriety and 100% support harm reduction. I just don’t want my hard won sobriety lumped in with someone’s sober-ish moderation or alcohol reduction. Which isn’t to say that some folks who aim for full sobriety sometimes slip. That’s different and I think we all know that.
I also believe (hope?) we will see a shift in the alcohol consumption culture, much like we saw in the tobacco smoking culture. It wasn’t that long ago where to be a non-smoker was to be the oddity; the weirdo, the annoying one asking to sit in the nonsmoking section (remember those?). I hope, that in my lifetime, I see us sober folks becoming the normies, with the drinkers outside on the back stoop, chugging their highly taxed socially unacceptable hard cider.
Thank you for being here and for sharing that, Rosemary. Your experience is very resonant with my own. And yes! Maybe in five years, folks won’t need to explain why they’re choosing to not drink.
Thank you, Dana. Beautifully written. This will stay with me for a long time. I'm sharing it with my recovery community. 💕🙏
Thank you, Amy! Hearts to you! ❤️
“Anything that destigmatizes the choice to stop pouring a profoundly addictive, deeply harmful toxin down our throats is a win!”
💯
Yes! Thank you for being here, Dee!
Fantastic post. Thank you for sharing. I agree. In terms of other exclusive space debates, nationally we're discussing this on college campuses as DEI work is being politicized. Having a safe supportive space for Black students, for example, is now being seen as too exclusionary. But living at a PWI is exclusionary by nature and those affinity groups and spaces are created for Black students to find safety and a sense of belonging. Same for GSA/pride groups on campus. Both of these examples always welcome allies who might be outside of those identities but it's not a place for an ally to go to raise their voice and concerns. It wasn't created for the allies. It's necessary and helpful to create spaces and groups for individuals who are marginalized in our society. I see this as similar in some ways.
Thank you, Katie. And I’m really glad you brought in those kindred explorations and discussions - which feel extremely important to be having.
Dana, all your points were made very eloquently and clearly. I have a feeling that what people are missing is a sense of community and everyone will find that in their own way. I don't see how AA is gatekeeping and it's just an example of a how some terms are misused nowadays. For the people in AA, the program and its restrictions are lifesaving and necessary to survive (often it is about life and death) like you stated. I am not in AA but I am in Al-anon, so I understand a little about the other programs. Take care <3
Thank you for sharing and for your kind words, Helen. And I agree - so many folks (self included) seem to be searching for connection and community these days. Hearts to you!
My reaction was that I think this conversation stems from a debate between valuing a group versus the individual.
Those who value the individual may see a responsibility to guide the sober curious person into full sobriety, while those who value the group may see the devastation that a non-sober person could bring to that community.
Neither is right nor wrong, it's just an age-old nuance about how people view the world.
I personally value the group over the individual and would tell the person that it's ok to keep looking and not force a square peg into the round hole.
Others would call that opinion harsh, which I'm aware of.
Thanks for sharing that angle, Kevin. I find it interesting to consider how much of our tendencies in this regard are cultural, and how they differ from culture to culture, era to era, and community to community. My dharma teacher speaks about this as relates to the pull towards individualism among many North Americans, for example; the situation was quite different when he was training in a Zen monastery in Japan.
Or at least the belief among some that improving the individual is the best way to improve the whole.
I don't personally agree with that mindset, but that's just my opinion and a discussion for a different time.